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And, and sometimes that can be hard to measure again, because a lot on growth we optimize for, we want to run the experiments quickly.

And you look at your leading indicators and then you try to shorten to the shortest measurable time window so that you can, make a call and either ship or shut down pretty quickly.

And sometimes you miss what is happening to your relationship with the customer. If you only look at the metrics and one of the better ways, there's a lot of ways to measure customer relationship, there's, Yeah, NPS.

There's the, would you be disappointed if you didn't have it at score? I asked her, I think actually is qualitative research and I know that's a, it's expensive.

It's a luxury that not everyone has though. You can get crafty with them, gorilla DIY research, And one example I would give is, when I was working on revamping the sharing flow.

So over my 10 years at Pinterest, I think I like eight or 11, [] the sharing flow, the sharing rate. Like, it's not Oh, I'm so amazing. It's more of just whew.

It was rough before. And, when we took it to qual, what we saw, and this was like, I'll tell you, it was like body language, a little bit of what people said, but like first it was their body language, which I would describe as, a bad hookup face, which was like what that's over already.

And, What happened was we had optimized for sending really quickly, but that was a fundamentally incorrect hypothesis. That speed was the [] most important thing.

We know that the people who were likely to share were the closest people in someone's network, your friends, your family, your besties, your children, And, a lot of times when you have relationships like close, so you don't actually need a lot of context because you're sitting right next to each other on the couch, you're always in communication.

And so we dug into it a little bit and realized that, when you're sharing an idea, there's a lot of different. And, within an image might be, you might have image of a living room and you might be trying to have a conversation about a chair in that living room being like, wow, wouldn't this chair look great for our house.

And, they need the ability to set that context. And we wouldn't have known that without having talked to the customer.

And, it [] was really important because we wanted people to send. Messaging within Pinterest because, if they send me a Pinterest, then we have their contact information and their email address, we can reset it.

And we can we have additional ways of reaching out to, the recipient to engage them. Versus if they send via an external sharing plan for him, we just don't really know that much about what happens.

Like you could maybe track the link, but that's about it. And we added the ability to include a personal message, which literally doubled the amount of steps that it took to share content.

Yeah, but what happened was the metrics went down slightly, but the response rate went up, which is when you're working on sharing and virality, it's not about just lobbing information over a wall.

You're, it's a cycle, right? Like the value cycle of sharing something is to get a response. No one likes sharing to avoid.

That's [] not fun. Nobody talks to a wall. Sending also made it more successful for the recipient to have context, to be able to successfully respond.

And we would have never learned that if we had just looked at the numbers, we probably would have like high five each other and gone home. I love that as all psyche, she ran experimented to win, and let's say normally we just high five yourself in going, but really spending the time to actually measure that.

Not just from a quantitative perspective or from a qualitative person active, had you the experience for the user, or if you just made something a little bit more fostering almost in a way like vanity metrics, but in this case, probably they did have some value on its own, but just really understanding that point.

There's one more point that I would like to emphasize about that, which is we saw it in their body language that it was not a [] good experience for them.

Like it was unsettling. And, what that told me was that even if we had initial lift, it would not be sustained because it wasn't a good experience for them and people don't repeat experiences.

That aren't good. I would rather just share link. I think this also one of the misleading things sometimes with experimentation as well is like you say, you could have a, initially a wind, what looks like to be a wind, but slowly over time, the experience that you've created, might've just been easier at that point.

And then tying it back to the longterm relationship. Imagine many teams across the company are experimenting like this.

When you shave the quality of the experience that way, then you have the customer experiencing many [] disappointing unsettling untrustworthy experiences.

And then that becomes your narrative with the customer. And that becomes how they remember the relationship.

And, brand trust is one of the hardest things to recuperate from if you damage it. So it is, it was a precious asset and, people.

People remember you when they feel like you're on your you're on their side, like. Andrew Michael: [] absolutely this thing maybe goes back to the beginning of the conversation as well about building the building and thinking a little bit longterm and taking into consideration all the different aspects of the building that you have.

And, that it has to be a coherent, good experience throughout as well. Having a building, that's got shitty toilets that are broken and living a wrenching smell, but the rest of the willing looks, pretend the front is not going to create a good experience for the homeowner, for the person who's working in their building.

Likewise, having that vision to understand like how this is obviously a big challenge. I think many organizations [] face as they scale experimentation and.

How like maybe a Dropbox or Pinterest or even a Facebook, are they dealing with this as a whole to make sure that, the experiences across the board and African parents, and they're not just over optimizing for metrics and then ruining their experience, like, how is this something that you avoided, in your career?

I think, it's a, it's always an aspiration. I don't think we ever fully avoid as much as we would like. I think there's a few things.

One is, having a design systems, team and design systems components, really helps. I think that is also true with platform thinking in general.

So both at Pinterest and at Dropbox, one of the things that I worked on was, for example, for experimentation, What should be the default set of behaviors for something like a popup, modal dialogue.

And, different [] teams have different levels of experimentation. Expertise, right? Like some, growth team. It will be very into the user behavior. It's like the absence of knowledge.

And when you have a system and both Pinterest and Dropbox have internal systems that enable you to launch, experiments, you can say what are the right defaults?

Because everyone at your company will typically use the default. If you make the default a healthy default that, from the data and from customer, Feedback is healthy.

The next time they visit that page. Experience that keeps coming back to life. I said, I wasn't interested. I closed the box.

I clicked or I scrolled away, there's passive and active dismissals. And then a limited number of exposures, like having intelligent defaults.

This was just work that I decided that we needed to do. Andrew Michael: [] Yeah, I liked as well. Like the system you're talking about as much as the design system, but it's like a user experience system as well.

And the natural flows that need to happen, unexpected behaviors. So sending a standard practice on what teams can and can't do with user behaviors as well.

And limiting them, but also limiting them in a good way that allows them then to run experiments freely, knowingly that they're not going to destroy the end user experience or damage the brand, like you said before as well.

And after joining this company, you see the trend in retention is not doing well at all. And the CEO comes to you and asks, you to try and lead things and turn things [] around for them.

But they're looking for results really quick. They want to see a dent in the first 90 days. I think the other thing you can do is you can look at, who is successfully retaining and why, depending on what stage or businesses in, that may be not necessarily a useful cohort.

I would start talking to customers. I would look at people, who have, tried recently, churned out, understand what's going on.

Customers is hard because typically they don't want to reengage with you, but, it's worth a try. It really depends on what you do as a business. Andrew Michael: [] Yeah, the strategies can change quite a lot.

So what you're saying now is all having exit flow data. There would be if someone's going to cancel, asking the reason for cancel and really trying to quantify and qualify, like the reasons w was that the main thing there.

I think you really want to understand why, is it. Has it, because your thing is too hard to use, is it a usability issue or is it actually primarily a value issue?

And if it is actually, if it's a usability issue, then you know where you need to spend your time. Like you just need to focus on the quality of that.

And that might mean like engineering investment. It might mean, UI changes, on the other hand, if [] your product value is just simply not.

You know what it is that people like, people come for something, but what they come for may not be what you deliver.

And so understanding what is the Delta between the value, the perceived value that people were initially attracted to versus, what you capably delivered is important.

I think especially if you're in the early stages, you can get adoption, but people are, if you have one, one hard and fast notion of what your business is for, you might actually discover that people are trying to use it for something else.

And that might actually be where you need to pivot towards, because the need, you thought wasn't actually there. Andrew Michael: [] Yeah, making sure that you're constantly iterating and paying attention to those signals.

So maybe last question as well for today. Like what is a perception that's changing your mind completely from the beginning until today?

Angel Steger: [] That is a [] great question. I think what grew stronger was my understanding of the value of building a habit. Like life changes, people change.

And, if you only have one use case that can be incredibly fragile, because that use case might go away, and so having multiple use cases that you're able to build habits around, that is what gives you.

I think the other thing is, recognize the competitive landscape, right? Now it's the second car you got was a used Honda. You would not encounter the same amount of, and when you think about that with regards to products and services, one is Even just your product alone, you have to continue to impress people and evolve and deliver value, Because, what is impressive initially will age and then, and and we know those services that haven't changed and we know how we feel about them cause we're users of those services.

So don't be that service, right? Think about that plan intentionally for that. And then, the second thing is the competitive landscape changes, right?

I can only get here. They can only get, can not get anywhere else. Like that value is relative and it's not absolute.

And so if you Pat yourself on the back for absolute value, like you will miss the boat, you might get it initially, you might get that activation.

And then, over years, you'll start to see that, you're. I love both of those points as well. I think like the use cases specifically, like personally is hands up, share your service today has a specific problem.

Like you managed to solve that once you solve that they have new problems. I think that's. An amazing way and not an insisted education, but just in different needs, is an excellent way to keep them engaged and very, but it's really funny that you mentioned the example of the car because literally, probably [] three, four days ago, I left my house and as I was driving in my car now, like a car passed me.

That was my. The first car that I had when I first had a car. And I literally thought about that experience was that because there was a young person driving the car.

And I was seeing that, I remember the first time I got that call, like how proud I was, how I felt about it. And then today, if I had to have the same, probably wouldn't feel the same.

Andrew Michael: [] so yeah, I think we run up now on time, Angel, but I really, really appreciate it know. Chatting to you.

Angel Steger: [] yeah, I think, follow me on LinkedIn, I think is probably the most, accurate way to stay up to date.

I write a little bit, have some stuff in the works. And, yeah, I think other words of advice [] that I'll just offer is just always remember that it's about customer value.

And so what you're. Whatever you're trying to measure. And then hopefully, maybe a little bit more maybe, like I think sometimes human beings, our aspirations are articulated.

Aspirations are significantly. Smaller than what our real aspirations are. And sometimes, if you can really understand customer mindset and get to the real aspiration behind the suit of aspiration, that's where you really start to have people strongly emotionally connect with what you do.

That connection, it doesn't a hundred percent save your business, but what you can do if people feel understood and recognized and valued in the customer relationship is you buy a people's [] patients and you buy their forgiveness because you've earned it.

And, I think that's really important when we're trying to learn, and develop and build things is like having that relationship where people are willing to be part of that journey with you, because they're happy and they're rooting for you because they feel like their success is tied to your success.

I think that's a fantastic way to end the show today. We'll definitely be picking up and reading whatever you bring out. So thanks a lot for joining.

FM, as I was tired of hearing stories about some magical silver bullet that solved churn for company X. In this podcast, you will hear from founders and subscription economy pros working in product, marketing, customer success, support, and operations roles across different stages of company growth, who are taking a systematic approach to increase retention and engagement within their organizations.

Highlights Time What is it like designing a building for 2. Andrew Michael: [] hi, Angel, welcome to the show. Angel Steger: [] Hi, thank you for having me.

And, there's so many different ways to translate skills. Now [] I walk into a building. I'm going to see it.

Yeah, Andrew Michael: [] absolutely. So that they're like, that was good. I want more, And that really happens in activations. In a relationship, you start Andrew Michael: [] coming Angel Steger: [] back to that and someone's what have you done for me lately and it's or nothing.

Double that value that you got out of it. But from a actual end user experience was not ideal. A great, Angel Steger: [] Yeah. People remember you when they feel like you're on your you're on their side, like Andrew Michael: [] absolutely this thing maybe goes back to the beginning of the conversation as well about building the building and thinking a little bit longterm and taking into consideration all the different aspects of the building that you have.

And, that is really important because you don't want to have to rebuild components. So it's literally just you describe my morning, like three, four days ago.

Angel Steger: [] Cool. Or how can they keep up to speed with what you're working on? Angel Steger: [] Thank you for having me. Thank you!

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Angel Steger: [] Yeah, I think there's actually A lot of methodologies that you use and like it's useful to use them in concert. And again, going back to what we discussed earlier, it's about a relationship and, whether or not your business model is based on engagement and ad revenue, or, a subscription service model.

And, and sometimes that can be hard to measure again, because a lot on growth we optimize for, we want to run the experiments quickly.

And you look at your leading indicators and then you try to shorten to the shortest measurable time window so that you can, make a call and either ship or shut down pretty quickly.

And sometimes you miss what is happening to your relationship with the customer. If you only look at the metrics and one of the better ways, there's a lot of ways to measure customer relationship, there's, Yeah, NPS.

There's the, would you be disappointed if you didn't have it at score? I asked her, I think actually is qualitative research and I know that's a, it's expensive.

It's a luxury that not everyone has though. You can get crafty with them, gorilla DIY research, And one example I would give is, when I was working on revamping the sharing flow.

So over my 10 years at Pinterest, I think I like eight or 11, [] the sharing flow, the sharing rate. Like, it's not Oh, I'm so amazing.

It's more of just whew. It was rough before. And, when we took it to qual, what we saw, and this was like, I'll tell you, it was like body language, a little bit of what people said, but like first it was their body language, which I would describe as, a bad hookup face, which was like what that's over already.

And, What happened was we had optimized for sending really quickly, but that was a fundamentally incorrect hypothesis.

That speed was the [] most important thing. We know that the people who were likely to share were the closest people in someone's network, your friends, your family, your besties, your children, And, a lot of times when you have relationships like close, so you don't actually need a lot of context because you're sitting right next to each other on the couch, you're always in communication.

And so we dug into it a little bit and realized that, when you're sharing an idea, there's a lot of different. And, within an image might be, you might have image of a living room and you might be trying to have a conversation about a chair in that living room being like, wow, wouldn't this chair look great for our house.

And, they need the ability to set that context. And we wouldn't have known that without having talked to the customer. And, it [] was really important because we wanted people to send.

Messaging within Pinterest because, if they send me a Pinterest, then we have their contact information and their email address, we can reset it.

And we can we have additional ways of reaching out to, the recipient to engage them. Versus if they send via an external sharing plan for him, we just don't really know that much about what happens.

Like you could maybe track the link, but that's about it. And we added the ability to include a personal message, which literally doubled the amount of steps that it took to share content.

Yeah, but what happened was the metrics went down slightly, but the response rate went up, which is when you're working on sharing and virality, it's not about just lobbing information over a wall.

You're, it's a cycle, right? Like the value cycle of sharing something is to get a response. No one likes sharing to avoid. That's [] not fun.

Nobody talks to a wall. Sending also made it more successful for the recipient to have context, to be able to successfully respond.

And we would have never learned that if we had just looked at the numbers, we probably would have like high five each other and gone home. I love that as all psyche, she ran experimented to win, and let's say normally we just high five yourself in going, but really spending the time to actually measure that.

Not just from a quantitative perspective or from a qualitative person active, had you the experience for the user, or if you just made something a little bit more fostering almost in a way like vanity metrics, but in this case, probably they did have some value on its own, but just really understanding that point.

There's one more point that I would like to emphasize about that, which is we saw it in their body language that it was not a [] good experience for them.

Like it was unsettling. And, what that told me was that even if we had initial lift, it would not be sustained because it wasn't a good experience for them and people don't repeat experiences.

That aren't good. I would rather just share link. I think this also one of the misleading things sometimes with experimentation as well is like you say, you could have a, initially a wind, what looks like to be a wind, but slowly over time, the experience that you've created, might've just been easier at that point.

And then tying it back to the longterm relationship. Imagine many teams across the company are experimenting like this.

When you shave the quality of the experience that way, then you have the customer experiencing many [] disappointing unsettling untrustworthy experiences.

And then that becomes your narrative with the customer. And that becomes how they remember the relationship. And, brand trust is one of the hardest things to recuperate from if you damage it.

So it is, it was a precious asset and, people. People remember you when they feel like you're on your you're on their side, like.

Andrew Michael: [] absolutely this thing maybe goes back to the beginning of the conversation as well about building the building and thinking a little bit longterm and taking into consideration all the different aspects of the building that you have.

And, that it has to be a coherent, good experience throughout as well. Having a building, that's got shitty toilets that are broken and living a wrenching smell, but the rest of the willing looks, pretend the front is not going to create a good experience for the homeowner, for the person who's working in their building.

Likewise, having that vision to understand like how this is obviously a big challenge. I think many organizations [] face as they scale experimentation and.

How like maybe a Dropbox or Pinterest or even a Facebook, are they dealing with this as a whole to make sure that, the experiences across the board and African parents, and they're not just over optimizing for metrics and then ruining their experience, like, how is this something that you avoided, in your career?

I think, it's a, it's always an aspiration. I don't think we ever fully avoid as much as we would like. I think there's a few things. One is, having a design systems, team and design systems components, really helps.

I think that is also true with platform thinking in general. So both at Pinterest and at Dropbox, one of the things that I worked on was, for example, for experimentation, What should be the default set of behaviors for something like a popup, modal dialogue.

And, different [] teams have different levels of experimentation. Expertise, right? Like some, growth team. It will be very into the user behavior.

It's like the absence of knowledge. And when you have a system and both Pinterest and Dropbox have internal systems that enable you to launch, experiments, you can say what are the right defaults?

Because everyone at your company will typically use the default. If you make the default a healthy default that, from the data and from customer, Feedback is healthy.

The next time they visit that page. Experience that keeps coming back to life. I said, I wasn't interested. I closed the box. I clicked or I scrolled away, there's passive and active dismissals.

And then a limited number of exposures, like having intelligent defaults. This was just work that I decided that we needed to do.

Andrew Michael: [] Yeah, I liked as well. Like the system you're talking about as much as the design system, but it's like a user experience system as well.

And the natural flows that need to happen, unexpected behaviors. So sending a standard practice on what teams can and can't do with user behaviors as well.

And limiting them, but also limiting them in a good way that allows them then to run experiments freely, knowingly that they're not going to destroy the end user experience or damage the brand, like you said before as well.

And after joining this company, you see the trend in retention is not doing well at all. And the CEO comes to you and asks, you to try and lead things and turn things [] around for them.

But they're looking for results really quick. They want to see a dent in the first 90 days. I think the other thing you can do is you can look at, who is successfully retaining and why, depending on what stage or businesses in, that may be not necessarily a useful cohort.

I would start talking to customers. I would look at people, who have, tried recently, churned out, understand what's going on.

Customers is hard because typically they don't want to reengage with you, but, it's worth a try. It really depends on what you do as a business.

Andrew Michael: [] Yeah, the strategies can change quite a lot. So what you're saying now is all having exit flow data.

There would be if someone's going to cancel, asking the reason for cancel and really trying to quantify and qualify, like the reasons w was that the main thing there.

I think you really want to understand why, is it. Has it, because your thing is too hard to use, is it a usability issue or is it actually primarily a value issue?

And if it is actually, if it's a usability issue, then you know where you need to spend your time. Like you just need to focus on the quality of that.

And that might mean like engineering investment. It might mean, UI changes, on the other hand, if [] your product value is just simply not.

You know what it is that people like, people come for something, but what they come for may not be what you deliver.

And so understanding what is the Delta between the value, the perceived value that people were initially attracted to versus, what you capably delivered is important.

I think especially if you're in the early stages, you can get adoption, but people are, if you have one, one hard and fast notion of what your business is for, you might actually discover that people are trying to use it for something else.

And that might actually be where you need to pivot towards, because the need, you thought wasn't actually there. Andrew Michael: [] Yeah, making sure that you're constantly iterating and paying attention to those signals.

So maybe last question as well for today. Like what is a perception that's changing your mind completely from the beginning until today?

Angel Steger: [] That is a [] great question. I think what grew stronger was my understanding of the value of building a habit. Like life changes, people change.

And, if you only have one use case that can be incredibly fragile, because that use case might go away, and so having multiple use cases that you're able to build habits around, that is what gives you.

I think the other thing is, recognize the competitive landscape, right? Now it's the second car you got was a used Honda. You would not encounter the same amount of, and when you think about that with regards to products and services, one is Even just your product alone, you have to continue to impress people and evolve and deliver value, Because, what is impressive initially will age and then, and and we know those services that haven't changed and we know how we feel about them cause we're users of those services.

So don't be that service, right? Think about that plan intentionally for that. And then, the second thing is the competitive landscape changes, right?

I can only get here. They can only get, can not get anywhere else. Like that value is relative and it's not absolute.

And so if you Pat yourself on the back for absolute value, like you will miss the boat, you might get it initially, you might get that activation.

And then, over years, you'll start to see that, you're. I love both of those points as well. I think like the use cases specifically, like personally is hands up, share your service today has a specific problem.

Like you managed to solve that once you solve that they have new problems. I think that's. An amazing way and not an insisted education, but just in different needs, is an excellent way to keep them engaged and very, but it's really funny that you mentioned the example of the car because literally, probably [] three, four days ago, I left my house and as I was driving in my car now, like a car passed me.

That was my. The first car that I had when I first had a car. And I literally thought about that experience was that because there was a young person driving the car.

And I was seeing that, I remember the first time I got that call, like how proud I was, how I felt about it. And then today, if I had to have the same, probably wouldn't feel the same.

Andrew Michael: [] so yeah, I think we run up now on time, Angel, but I really, really appreciate it know. Chatting to you. Angel Steger: [] yeah, I think, follow me on LinkedIn, I think is probably the most, accurate way to stay up to date.

I write a little bit, have some stuff in the works. And, yeah, I think other words of advice [] that I'll just offer is just always remember that it's about customer value.

And so what you're. Whatever you're trying to measure. And then hopefully, maybe a little bit more maybe, like I think sometimes human beings, our aspirations are articulated.

Aspirations are significantly. Smaller than what our real aspirations are. And sometimes, if you can really understand customer mindset and get to the real aspiration behind the suit of aspiration, that's where you really start to have people strongly emotionally connect with what you do.

That connection, it doesn't a hundred percent save your business, but what you can do if people feel understood and recognized and valued in the customer relationship is you buy a people's [] patients and you buy their forgiveness because you've earned it.

And, I think that's really important when we're trying to learn, and develop and build things is like having that relationship where people are willing to be part of that journey with you, because they're happy and they're rooting for you because they feel like their success is tied to your success.

I think that's a fantastic way to end the show today. We'll definitely be picking up and reading whatever you bring out.

So thanks a lot for joining. FM, as I was tired of hearing stories about some magical silver bullet that solved churn for company X.

In this podcast, you will hear from founders and subscription economy pros working in product, marketing, customer success, support, and operations roles across different stages of company growth, who are taking a systematic approach to increase retention and engagement within their organizations.

Highlights Time What is it like designing a building for 2. Andrew Michael: [] hi, Angel, welcome to the show. Angel Steger: [] Hi, thank you for having me.

And, there's so many different ways to translate skills. Now [] I walk into a building. I'm going to see it.

Yeah, Andrew Michael: [] absolutely. So that they're like, that was good. I want more, And that really happens in activations.

In a relationship, you start Andrew Michael: [] coming Angel Steger: [] back to that and someone's what have you done for me lately and it's or nothing.

Double that value that you got out of it. But from a actual end user experience was not ideal. A great, Angel Steger: [] Yeah. People remember you when they feel like you're on your you're on their side, like Andrew Michael: [] absolutely this thing maybe goes back to the beginning of the conversation as well about building the building and thinking a little bit longterm and taking into consideration all the different aspects of the building that you have.

And, that is really important because you don't want to have to rebuild components. So it's literally just you describe my morning, like three, four days ago.

Angel Steger: [] Cool. Or how can they keep up to speed with what you're working on? Angel Steger: [] Thank you for having me. Thank you!

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